I didn’t want to post anything further about the Vikings stadium proposal until it was either signed/sealed/delivered or legislative roadkill, but it looks like we’re finally on the cusp of that happening. Once the governor finally puts pen to paper, there will be some relief that the Minnesota Vikings will remain in existence as an NFL team, but there will be a lot more that the great football stadium debate is finally over.
Never has that end been more welcome than this week; the topic has been beaten into the ground so thoroughly, they could’ve moved the debate to the proposed site and saved $20 million on excavation costs. Much like the Summer Olympics, the ubiquitous coverage has given something that once carried a passing interest all the appeal of a dentist drill. But to be fair, it’s not like we’ve got much else going on. Discussing the playoffs inevitably leads to depressing thoughts about why we’re not in them, and the current Twins club should be regarded the way China thinks of Taiwan, refusal to recognize their existence.
So we’ll take wins where we can get them, and although some may disagree, this deal looks like a win from where I’m sitting. They say a fair deal is one where both sides feel a bit cheated, and that’s the vibe coming out of this things at the moment. Yes, I’m a football fan. Yes, I realize the team is getting a good deal that will make them a lot of money. No, I don’t think this it’s the end of the world, or care what it says about “our priorities”.
A funny phrase, “our priorities”, since it always seems to really mean “my priorities, which you should also adopt as your own”. The comments of politicians, pundits and nameless online trolls have provided great fodder as this whole saga has unfolded. Particularly during the past week as the most vocal stadium haters have gone positively apoplectic over the bill’s progression through the legislature. As a matter of fact, the doomsayers predicting the eminent demise of our state, country and world as a whole due to these events has been the one truly enjoyable thing about the process.
This isn’t a Vikings stadium justification, in fact I’m not sure that’s possible. If it could be shown to have true value from a return-on-investment perspective, it would’ve been built years ago. It’s my personal belief that stadiums have great value in keeping people connected to downtown areas, promoting tourism, and giving short-term employment a shot in the arm, but also realize that they don’t fully pay their cost back. Enough studies have been done demonstrating that entertainment spending simply migrates from other sources, rather than increasing in the aggregate. Whether or not it’s more desirable to have that spending occurring in downtown Minneapolis, instead of an Applebees in Rogers, is another question (I’d say yes, but I’ll let you make your own judgments there).
Point is, no government outlay can be shown to have benefit outweighing it’s cost with 100% certainty. Not a bike path, not a museum, not a state park, and definitely not any off the hundred less-tangible black holes we pour money down with no visible signs of improvement. We do a lot of things simply because they make scores of people happy, at minimal cost to any particular individual. Sure, we could spend this money on more noble causes; problem is, would it make any difference at all? Morally bankrupt as you may find this project, at least we know the price and will have definite results by which to judge its success. Knowing what you got for what you paid, I’m big on that.
I appreciate you anti-stadium folks, truly; you’re the canary in the mineshaft that keeps us from getting railroaded into giving up the farm. I know you’re angry about things today, but you probably succeeded in lopping $100 million or so off the public share, so kudos on that. But you had to make everything so personal.
With a few exceptions, the lives of football fans don’t revolve completely around watching grown men play a game. We don’t lack meaning in our lives, have pathetic existences, or any of the other lovely bouquets I’ve seen thrown by anonymous commenters in the past few days. If the team packed up and left, or even if football ceased to exist, we’d keep on living our lives, a bit less entertained perhaps, but otherwise not much worse for the wear. The only thing that would likely change is you bitching about us cluttering up your bike paths on Sunday afternoons.
Instead, you get to keep doing what you’re doing unencumbered, and we get to keep watching the team we grew up with, right here in the state of Minnesota. I still get to engage in the Sunday ritual of watching the game with my father and calling my brother to dissect it afterwards, the way we’ve been doing for years. My friends get to look forward to bringing their kids to their first game, and with the next 30 years secured, maybe even their grandkids too. Family gatherings will continue to be able to rely on the crutch of Vikings talk to pave over awkward conversations, connections will continue to be forged between strangers over that same common ground, and heck, maybe even a few kids will get inspired to opt for playing sports over melting into a chair with their video games.
After all, there’s an obesity epidemic in this country, and you’re not against children, are you? (See how ridiculous that sounds?)
Besides, did you ever think this deal wasn’t going to get done? You railed against Target Field, but it happened, albeit greatly delayed (and as a far better venue than if you’d stayed silent, ironically). A few of you even brought the same outrage to the approval of TCF Bank Stadium, although there was far less venom being spewed on that one. A monolithic university is not nearly as fun a villain as a billionaire real estate developer. In the end, both worked out the same way, and if you thought that the Vikings, the state’s most beloved team in the country’s most beloved sports, weren’t getting similar treatment…grow up.
They’re going to build it, it’s going to be great, and in a few months time, you’ll forget all about it, having moved on to your next bout of moralistic finger-waving at those of us not living up to the high standard you’ve set. Frankly, you’re all a bunch of mean-spirited bores, and I don’t care what you think about anything. You probably don’t care, but you are all officially off the guest list for my Super Bowl party next year. No queso, no chicken wings, and certainly not a single piece of the gigantic sandwich.
To tell the truth, I was ready to deal with no stadium and no NFL in this town at one point. I never believed it would get there, but was at peace with the fact that if it did happen, I’d shrug and move on. So thank you, nameless angry masses, for being the kind of lame stick-in-the-mud types that are delightful to infuriate. You’re hyperbole, bile and general unpleasantness have pushed what was a great triumph even higher still. On opening day, I will salute you from my overpriced seat, while eating my bland hotdog and drinking my watered-down beer…and then I will flip you off.
Screw you guys…I’m going to the stadium! SKOL!
Showing posts with label Vikings stadium. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Vikings stadium. Show all posts
Thursday, May 10, 2012
Tuesday, April 17, 2012
Everything is going to be alright (I hope)
For approximately half of my life, there has been discussion of the Vikings needing a new stadium. It started off idle enough, with chatter in the mid-90s ramping up to a full-on campaign about a decade ago, and finally morphing into hand-wringing hysteria over the last couple of years.
During that time, there was the near-miss on the Anoka County stadium in 2006, which always seemed more about the team thinking it could get a better deal than anything else. A focus of efforts on downtown Minneapolis, where plans to build on the current Metrodome site got scuttled by an inability to secure the required real estate at the right price. A misguided attempt to build a “destination stadium” in a northern suburb based on county tax dollars; the grand majority of which would be footed by a city who wouldn’t be host to the facility (because that always goes over well). And finally, the return to a trio of downtown sites...which ultimately landed things right back where they started at the Dome.
Every one of these course corrections carried with it endless debate about location, tailgating opportunities, infrastructure, and funding plans that ranged from half-baked to absurd. But through it all, the feeling prevailed that it was only a matter of time before things got taken care of. That's how it works with sports facilities, leases expire, economic realities hit home, and push comes to shove. After a bit of hemming and hawing about “misplaced priorities” and “handouts to billionaires”, we’d cave and hand over the few hundred million dollars required to make it happen.
Because this wasn't the Twins, or North Stars, it was the Vikings. The saga that caused this town to lose one team, and have another spend an extra decade playing in a flavorless marshmallow where a day at the ballpark went to die, would not be repeated here. This was the NFL, and the most popular team in town by a landslide. Dealmakers would make things happen to get this done, without the nasty threats of contraction and relocation that hung over past dealings.
Unfortunately, it appears that once again, we're not in for a smooth ride.
Not to say it won't get done, because it will, rest assured. It might be 2017 or 2018 before you see it, but eventually a shiny new billion-dollar palace will be built, complete with screens observable from space, gluttonous food options, and all sorts of other things that will no doubt make a bunch of terrorists hate us.
It just appears that we're going to need a bit of ugliness, some good old threatening and cajoling, to get things to that point.
This isn't a blog about the merits of stadiums, I have my opinions and am not really concerned about convincing anyone who might disagree with them. Some of the spending that goes into these buildings is frivolous and ridiculous, but you know what? So is a lot of other stuff. I find value in this project primarily because I like professional football, and I'm certain that, given a red pen, a copy of the state budget and a couple hours, I could find the cash to pay for it. Perhaps even without any apocalyptic consequences. No promises on that though.
If you disagree, more power to you, write some letters, makes some signs, and dance in the streets when the team finally leaves town. While a bit callous, considering how many people would be losing a cherished part of their personal history should that occur, it is your prerogative.
But you won't get that opportunity, because of two things:
The NFL isn't eager for the Vikings to move to Los Angeles.
If the team and the league can successfully convince the state of Minnesota that they are serious about doing just that, they will cave.
As to the first point, pro sports teams moving is something that stinks, but actually might be warranted here. For the time being, calling that bluff could be a gamble worth taking. The NFL can't be eager to pull a team out of the country's 15th largest media market, even if it will be moving to the 2nd. Perhaps this is a naive viewpoint, and I'm sorely overestimating the importance of this city. But when half the cities in your league are smaller TV markets, and there are some far better candidates to be moved, it is the absolute last option that should be employed.
However, even the last option is still an option, and the fact they may be loathe to employ the scorched-Earth plan doesn't mean I don't think it's a threat. But that reluctance should at least buy time to try a different tack. The problem here, in my view, is that enough cages have not been rattled. While threats are typically not well received, they also appear to be the only thing that truly moves the needle in this area. The Vikings owners and the NFL have been agreeable in their dealings so far, and now it's time for that to end.
It's time for a game of chicken, and as long as the threats are genuine enough, I think the politicians will be the ones to blink.
Perhaps that won't be the case, who knows? In a world where the local hockey team can end up in Dallas, anything is truly possible. We can debate the particulars all we want, but it's not every day that an entity comes along who's willing to invest $400 million in your city. If you want to talk about a proposal that was poorly put together, with too many open questions, that's fine. Go back to the drawing board, find something that's viable, and come back this time next year with a done deal that has broad support.
In the meantime Vikings fans, I know you're annoyed with this, but try not to fret. This will eventually get done, the team isn't going anywhere, my faith in this is unshakable. Unfortunately, as bizarre as it seems, you're going to have to convince them of your intention to burn down the current house, before they'll agree to build you a better one.
I mean, come on, what would Loserville be without the Vikings? They're the crumbling rock that this church was built on. Can't leave, won't leave, now it's just time to convince everyone they're about to.
During that time, there was the near-miss on the Anoka County stadium in 2006, which always seemed more about the team thinking it could get a better deal than anything else. A focus of efforts on downtown Minneapolis, where plans to build on the current Metrodome site got scuttled by an inability to secure the required real estate at the right price. A misguided attempt to build a “destination stadium” in a northern suburb based on county tax dollars; the grand majority of which would be footed by a city who wouldn’t be host to the facility (because that always goes over well). And finally, the return to a trio of downtown sites...which ultimately landed things right back where they started at the Dome.
Every one of these course corrections carried with it endless debate about location, tailgating opportunities, infrastructure, and funding plans that ranged from half-baked to absurd. But through it all, the feeling prevailed that it was only a matter of time before things got taken care of. That's how it works with sports facilities, leases expire, economic realities hit home, and push comes to shove. After a bit of hemming and hawing about “misplaced priorities” and “handouts to billionaires”, we’d cave and hand over the few hundred million dollars required to make it happen.
Because this wasn't the Twins, or North Stars, it was the Vikings. The saga that caused this town to lose one team, and have another spend an extra decade playing in a flavorless marshmallow where a day at the ballpark went to die, would not be repeated here. This was the NFL, and the most popular team in town by a landslide. Dealmakers would make things happen to get this done, without the nasty threats of contraction and relocation that hung over past dealings.
Unfortunately, it appears that once again, we're not in for a smooth ride.
Not to say it won't get done, because it will, rest assured. It might be 2017 or 2018 before you see it, but eventually a shiny new billion-dollar palace will be built, complete with screens observable from space, gluttonous food options, and all sorts of other things that will no doubt make a bunch of terrorists hate us.
It just appears that we're going to need a bit of ugliness, some good old threatening and cajoling, to get things to that point.
This isn't a blog about the merits of stadiums, I have my opinions and am not really concerned about convincing anyone who might disagree with them. Some of the spending that goes into these buildings is frivolous and ridiculous, but you know what? So is a lot of other stuff. I find value in this project primarily because I like professional football, and I'm certain that, given a red pen, a copy of the state budget and a couple hours, I could find the cash to pay for it. Perhaps even without any apocalyptic consequences. No promises on that though.
If you disagree, more power to you, write some letters, makes some signs, and dance in the streets when the team finally leaves town. While a bit callous, considering how many people would be losing a cherished part of their personal history should that occur, it is your prerogative.
But you won't get that opportunity, because of two things:
The NFL isn't eager for the Vikings to move to Los Angeles.
If the team and the league can successfully convince the state of Minnesota that they are serious about doing just that, they will cave.
As to the first point, pro sports teams moving is something that stinks, but actually might be warranted here. For the time being, calling that bluff could be a gamble worth taking. The NFL can't be eager to pull a team out of the country's 15th largest media market, even if it will be moving to the 2nd. Perhaps this is a naive viewpoint, and I'm sorely overestimating the importance of this city. But when half the cities in your league are smaller TV markets, and there are some far better candidates to be moved, it is the absolute last option that should be employed.
However, even the last option is still an option, and the fact they may be loathe to employ the scorched-Earth plan doesn't mean I don't think it's a threat. But that reluctance should at least buy time to try a different tack. The problem here, in my view, is that enough cages have not been rattled. While threats are typically not well received, they also appear to be the only thing that truly moves the needle in this area. The Vikings owners and the NFL have been agreeable in their dealings so far, and now it's time for that to end.
It's time for a game of chicken, and as long as the threats are genuine enough, I think the politicians will be the ones to blink.
Perhaps that won't be the case, who knows? In a world where the local hockey team can end up in Dallas, anything is truly possible. We can debate the particulars all we want, but it's not every day that an entity comes along who's willing to invest $400 million in your city. If you want to talk about a proposal that was poorly put together, with too many open questions, that's fine. Go back to the drawing board, find something that's viable, and come back this time next year with a done deal that has broad support.
In the meantime Vikings fans, I know you're annoyed with this, but try not to fret. This will eventually get done, the team isn't going anywhere, my faith in this is unshakable. Unfortunately, as bizarre as it seems, you're going to have to convince them of your intention to burn down the current house, before they'll agree to build you a better one.
I mean, come on, what would Loserville be without the Vikings? They're the crumbling rock that this church was built on. Can't leave, won't leave, now it's just time to convince everyone they're about to.
Monday, May 16, 2011
Stadium Arcadium
There are a few tiresome things that have been dragging on far too long on the regional sports scene. The Fighting Sioux nickname controversy, the general ineptitude of the Timberwolves, and topping the list, the Vikings pursuit of a stadium.
To clarify an important point, I'm not against public money for stadiums, and I consider myself a huge Vikings fan. I'm willing to bet that I've attended more games and put more time/money into this team than 90% of fans out there. I do not want them to leave Minnesota, but it's hard to have much sympathy for their situation when they keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Let's take a trip down memory lane to the Anoka County stadium days, when the team had an agreement on a $675 million facility, with $250 coming from the team. With the inevitable overruns, the true cost would likely have been in the $750-800 million range, with the Vikings share falling around $300. Of course that was scuttled when Zygi started flirting with Minneapolis about a competing plan. The county lawmakers up north decided they did not appreciate being treated as pawns, and here we are 5 years later, in the same spot. A similar joint venture with the Gophers on a shared stadium was also slapped down along the way. So as you listen to the threats, coercion and woe-is-us messages coming from the Vikings camp, it's important to remember that this could've been solved long ago.
The problem of course, is greed. The end goal of the team has always been to have it's cake and eat it too; maximize profits, team value and share nothing with anyone. Anything less than the ideal solution that will allow for that is immediately dismissed as "unworkable". Now the saga continues against the backdrop of a state budget that's underwater by $5 billion and the NFL locked in a showdown of greed that could potentially cancel it's next season. If it wasn't for bad timing, this franchise would have none at all.
But again, they've made the choice that have brought them to this point.
So now we have two stadium proposals to ponder, a far-flung palace in Arden Hills vs. a new building on the current Metrodome site in dowtown Minneapolis. Assuming we look past the fact that the Vikings don't seem to be a trustworthy partner in this type of negotiation, and that if not for their greed, this whole situation could've been avoided, what does the public gain by footing the bill for this thing? Full disclosure, I was a big proponent of the Twins stadium after watching years of baseball in the Metrodump. Baseball needs to be played outdoors, and is also the last major sport that can be attended somewhat affordably by average people. I buy the argument that sports facities don't really spur new economic activity. That dollars simply flow from other forms of entertainment to offset trips to the game. Whether you buy into that notion fully is your decision, but it tends to strike me as logical. Lacking teams, money spent on sports would likely still be spent regardless, at least that's what happens in my life.
But what else other than sports is bringing tens of thousands of people to downtown Minneapolis 100+ nights a year? What connects more suburbanites to downtown that the excursions to watch these teams play? City dwellers may say the hell with those people, let them stay home and quit cluttering up my downtown. Unfortunately that's your tax base folks, and love em or hate em, the place you live is going to come out better the next time a budget is approved if more people have a vested interest in keeping it vibrant. Target Field has been a perfect example of a sports attraction's power in this area. New businesses are opening, old ones are making additions, and all of dowtown Minneapolis has felt the lift from the 3 million wallets going through it's turnstiles. Whether the honeymoon continues, as it has with the Xcel in St. Paul, remains to be seen. But for the moment at least, there are many more people with a personal connection to the city.
The same return on investment, in the form of more people having a vested interest in your city, won't be seen by a municipality hosting a football stadium. Sure the ten Vikings games played each year will be augmented by concerts and other events, but can we expect it to yield the same sort of day-to-day lift that other sports venues offer? Some business will get a charge, especially on game days, but it's unlikely that crowds will be consistent enough to generate similar impact to the last two publicly-backed projects we've seen.
As I've said, public financing for stadiums is not an issue for me. I like sports and pay for a million government services I don't use, why not get something I enjoy out of it? But I also do not appreciate being treated like a fool, which has too often been the feeling Vikings stadium discussions have given. Maybe this time they get everything they want, and this thing finally gets put to bed. But is the best thing for the team also the best thing for the fans?
Let's break it down, tale 'o the tape style:
Location
Arden Hills
Pros: Tailgating, better gameday experience, not having to hassle with downtown
Cons: Being screwed if you don't plan on tailgating, having to spend a boatload of money on new infrastructure, chances of a serious cluster**** developing while trying to exit
Minneapolis
Pros: Central location, easy access through existing infrastructure, access to about 1,000 restaurants, public transit, revitalized downtown businesses
Listen, I like tailgating as much as the next guy, but I don't want to be locked into it every time I feel like going to a game. Build the stadium in what's essentially an open field, and that's what you'll get. Make an island and you risk getting stranded. People will try to tell you that development of bars and restaurants will occur in the surrounding area, and I'm sure they'll be right to some degree. But whatever happens will not amount to even a fraction of what's available downtown. You want an example of what happens when they build a stadium in the middle of nowhere? Take a trip to University of Phoenix Stadium in Glendale, AZ. Sure they have parking lots aplenty, but on days when it's a million degrees outside and folks don't feel like getting heat stroke before the game, they flock to the adjoining restaurants...all three of them.
When I was in attendance, the available venues were packed to the gills four hours before gametime, with lines of people stretching around the block waiting to get in. Seems to me this situation is going to mirror things pretty well if the Arden Hills site is chosen, with freezing patrons simply swapped for the sweltering ones. And don't even get me started on the nightmare that is 70,000 people attempting to leave via a cheesy network of roads that can't come close to handling them. Why build some cheap imitation of an entertainment district when the real thing already exists ten miles away? Why spend the estimated quarter-billion dollars on infrastructure when the light rail we already spent the same kind of money on rolls up to the door of the competing site? We drop money hand over fist to try and make downtown more accessible, then start throwing attractions halfway to Duluth? Get a grip folks, a few thousand people cooking brats in the parking lot never won anyone anything, look big picture here.
Advantage: Minneapolis
Financing
Arden Hills
A shade over $1 billion with a team contribution of $407 million
Minneapolis
$895 million with a requested $400 million from the team, also need to factor in an estimated $40-50 million lost from having to play at a smaller venue during construction
The question of "fair share" when discussing team contributions for stadiums is a dicey one. Many folks thing the number should be 100%. As I've said, that's not my camp, but it certainly doesn't seem unreasonable to begin discussions at a 50/50 split. A $450 million price tag for Minneapolis would top what other NFL teams have paid in terms of dollars, but is also a lower percentage than some, based on the $895 million total. The Vikings were quick to respond that the requested $400 million in funding for the Minneapolis proposal would be too much, particularly when the loss from 2-3 seasons spent in a college stadium factored in.
The team did offer a contribution of $407 million as part of the Arden Hills proposal. But that looks less generous when you factor in a total price tage of over $1 billion and the revenue streams from parking, naming rights, personal seat licenses, etc. being added to the franchise coffers. Reading from yesterday's Strib article gives the impression that the total tab could run higher still, approaching the $1.3 billion range:
Hours before the Arden Hills deal was announced, Ted Mondale, the governor's chief stadium negotiator, issued a long-awaited cost comparison of the two sites that showed the Arden Hills stadium would cost up to $1.28 billion, compared to $895 million at the Metrodome. According to the analysis, the Arden Hills site would require $275 million to $340 million in highway, parking and other improvements. The Metrodome site would need $30 million for new parking spaces and skyway connections
Call me cynical, but this whole thing reminds me of the bait-and-switch tactic being employed a few months ago, when the Purple offered to fund a higher percentage of a cheaper, open-air stadium. The tactic there seemed to be along the lines of "We'll pay half, but if you want a roof on it, that's your problem." They knew full well that a roof was a must to make it a year-round venue, but it looked better on paper to offer a 50% share of something a couple hundred millions dollars cheaper. As with most things, you have to read the fine print. This variation in infrastructure costs, which the state is on the hook for, feels like more of the same.
Advantage: Minneapolis (or at least it will be when the true cost comes out)
Timing
Arden Hills
Worked with the team and county over a period of weeks to develop a plan
Minneapolis
Haphazardly threw together a proposal at the 11th hour only after Hennepin County backed out. Compounded the error by cluttering it up with Timberwolves-related nonsense that should've been addressed separately.
Advantage: Arden Hills, by a mile
So what now? Tough to say, they have two weeks to go in the legislative session, which is my opinion is not enough time to answer the outstanding questions. Furthermore, the govenor seems to be giving off signals that he favors the downtown Minneapolis plan. This whole situation give the impression that, while progress is being made, we're still a year out from a solution. I for one hope that delay results in a cohesive Minneapolis plan being offered and accepted, for the reasons detailed above.
At this point, the only thing that we know for certain is that the Vikings will go for whichever plan benefits them the most financially. I can't blame them for that, no billionaire became a billionaire by failing to take the best deal available. But from the perspective of a taxpayer, even one who can stomach the idea of funding this thing, it's time to place one hand over your wallet. Pardon me for being leery of an industry that essentially prints money, yet keeps claiming poverty.
Nevermind that professional sports franchises are never willing to produce the financial records proving the losses they claim. Or that franchises constantly seem to appreciate, with a slew of prospective buyers any time one of them goes up for sale. No, no, just take they're word for it, this is a terrible business to be in and they'll soon be forced to sell, move or liquidate...unless of course you can spare a dime brother. To the city of Minneapolis and state of Minnesota, please don't blink here. Stick to your guns, as we learned with the Twins, it's amazing what suddenly becomes palatable when it becomes clear there are no other options.
Otherwise, if a compromise needs to be made, tie a back-end payment into the sale of the team if it occurs within 10 years. Zygi reportedly bought this pig for $600 million, and Forbes had it valued around $800 million in 2010. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing a new facility kicks that valuation up to at least $1 billion, if not higher. Factor in the operation revenue to be gained in the interim and for the first 10 years, anything north of that mark goes back to the state coffers.
So those are my stadium thoughts, sorry for the length, but it's the last I'll be writing about it until something actually gets signed, sealed and delivered. No telling when that will be. A lot of people may take issue with my views, saying that they're unrealistic, and this is the price of admission for being an NFL town, but I really don't care. As much as I love the Vikings, I can live without them more easily than just about any other team in town (save for the Wolves). In my opinion, the NFL has completely sold out it's in-person experience for the sake of TV audiences, and watching 5 games at once from the comfort of a couch or barstool bypassed the hassle of attending in person long ago. What's more, I've grown tired of the antics from both the league and this team. Both have grown like an invasive weed, to the point of choking out all other life on the sports landscape. Their arrogance offends me, and I would love for Minnesota to be the first market to say "Thanks, but no thanks" when the stadium gun is put to their head. Alas, I'm convinced there is no possible way that happens, but a guy can dream.
Worst case scenario, they move them to LA, big whoop. This might lose me my fan card, but I think that's been a hollow threat all along. It's doubtful that the people who want to build the LA stadium won't want a controlling interest in the team that plays there, and I don't see Zygi moving it just to cede control. But it's out there, so needs to be noted. If it happens, I'll get along like millions of other fans across the country, rooting for an out-of-market team the same way I typically do now, on TV. While my sympathies would lay with those dedicated souls who consider being in the stands on Sunday a staple of life, they'd have to understand that the team and league did it to themselves. Besides, nothing is easier than being a long-distance fan in the age of the Internet and satellite television, you guys will be okay. And hey, you never know, maybe we'll get an expansion team that's not a cursed pack of losers.
Like I said fellow Purple faithful, if getting fed up at this episode of team history is grounds for kicking me off the bandwagon, so be it. My first choice is for a workable deal to be struck, but if the Vikings keep angling for more and more, as has been their m.o. in the past, I have no problem walking away. Rest assured that there will always be that portion of me that only stirs while watching the Vikes play, it's too ingrained to ever leave, but this whole thing makes me feel as if I'm being treated like an idiot. Maybe things would be different if they're wasn't a petty labor squabble going on at the moment, I'm not sure. It's just that every time I turn around it seems like sports is eating another part of itself. The ticket prices keep going up, while the talent pools just grow more deluded and players more detached. It's hard not to feel stupid for caring about it at times.
Of course, my original offer to the Vikings still stands: Win a Super Bowl and we'll pay every dime.
I'm not holding my breath.
To clarify an important point, I'm not against public money for stadiums, and I consider myself a huge Vikings fan. I'm willing to bet that I've attended more games and put more time/money into this team than 90% of fans out there. I do not want them to leave Minnesota, but it's hard to have much sympathy for their situation when they keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Let's take a trip down memory lane to the Anoka County stadium days, when the team had an agreement on a $675 million facility, with $250 coming from the team. With the inevitable overruns, the true cost would likely have been in the $750-800 million range, with the Vikings share falling around $300. Of course that was scuttled when Zygi started flirting with Minneapolis about a competing plan. The county lawmakers up north decided they did not appreciate being treated as pawns, and here we are 5 years later, in the same spot. A similar joint venture with the Gophers on a shared stadium was also slapped down along the way. So as you listen to the threats, coercion and woe-is-us messages coming from the Vikings camp, it's important to remember that this could've been solved long ago.
The problem of course, is greed. The end goal of the team has always been to have it's cake and eat it too; maximize profits, team value and share nothing with anyone. Anything less than the ideal solution that will allow for that is immediately dismissed as "unworkable". Now the saga continues against the backdrop of a state budget that's underwater by $5 billion and the NFL locked in a showdown of greed that could potentially cancel it's next season. If it wasn't for bad timing, this franchise would have none at all.
But again, they've made the choice that have brought them to this point.
So now we have two stadium proposals to ponder, a far-flung palace in Arden Hills vs. a new building on the current Metrodome site in dowtown Minneapolis. Assuming we look past the fact that the Vikings don't seem to be a trustworthy partner in this type of negotiation, and that if not for their greed, this whole situation could've been avoided, what does the public gain by footing the bill for this thing? Full disclosure, I was a big proponent of the Twins stadium after watching years of baseball in the Metrodump. Baseball needs to be played outdoors, and is also the last major sport that can be attended somewhat affordably by average people. I buy the argument that sports facities don't really spur new economic activity. That dollars simply flow from other forms of entertainment to offset trips to the game. Whether you buy into that notion fully is your decision, but it tends to strike me as logical. Lacking teams, money spent on sports would likely still be spent regardless, at least that's what happens in my life.
But what else other than sports is bringing tens of thousands of people to downtown Minneapolis 100+ nights a year? What connects more suburbanites to downtown that the excursions to watch these teams play? City dwellers may say the hell with those people, let them stay home and quit cluttering up my downtown. Unfortunately that's your tax base folks, and love em or hate em, the place you live is going to come out better the next time a budget is approved if more people have a vested interest in keeping it vibrant. Target Field has been a perfect example of a sports attraction's power in this area. New businesses are opening, old ones are making additions, and all of dowtown Minneapolis has felt the lift from the 3 million wallets going through it's turnstiles. Whether the honeymoon continues, as it has with the Xcel in St. Paul, remains to be seen. But for the moment at least, there are many more people with a personal connection to the city.
The same return on investment, in the form of more people having a vested interest in your city, won't be seen by a municipality hosting a football stadium. Sure the ten Vikings games played each year will be augmented by concerts and other events, but can we expect it to yield the same sort of day-to-day lift that other sports venues offer? Some business will get a charge, especially on game days, but it's unlikely that crowds will be consistent enough to generate similar impact to the last two publicly-backed projects we've seen.
As I've said, public financing for stadiums is not an issue for me. I like sports and pay for a million government services I don't use, why not get something I enjoy out of it? But I also do not appreciate being treated like a fool, which has too often been the feeling Vikings stadium discussions have given. Maybe this time they get everything they want, and this thing finally gets put to bed. But is the best thing for the team also the best thing for the fans?
Let's break it down, tale 'o the tape style:
Location
Arden Hills
Pros: Tailgating, better gameday experience, not having to hassle with downtown
Cons: Being screwed if you don't plan on tailgating, having to spend a boatload of money on new infrastructure, chances of a serious cluster**** developing while trying to exit
Minneapolis
Pros: Central location, easy access through existing infrastructure, access to about 1,000 restaurants, public transit, revitalized downtown businesses
Listen, I like tailgating as much as the next guy, but I don't want to be locked into it every time I feel like going to a game. Build the stadium in what's essentially an open field, and that's what you'll get. Make an island and you risk getting stranded. People will try to tell you that development of bars and restaurants will occur in the surrounding area, and I'm sure they'll be right to some degree. But whatever happens will not amount to even a fraction of what's available downtown. You want an example of what happens when they build a stadium in the middle of nowhere? Take a trip to University of Phoenix Stadium in Glendale, AZ. Sure they have parking lots aplenty, but on days when it's a million degrees outside and folks don't feel like getting heat stroke before the game, they flock to the adjoining restaurants...all three of them.
When I was in attendance, the available venues were packed to the gills four hours before gametime, with lines of people stretching around the block waiting to get in. Seems to me this situation is going to mirror things pretty well if the Arden Hills site is chosen, with freezing patrons simply swapped for the sweltering ones. And don't even get me started on the nightmare that is 70,000 people attempting to leave via a cheesy network of roads that can't come close to handling them. Why build some cheap imitation of an entertainment district when the real thing already exists ten miles away? Why spend the estimated quarter-billion dollars on infrastructure when the light rail we already spent the same kind of money on rolls up to the door of the competing site? We drop money hand over fist to try and make downtown more accessible, then start throwing attractions halfway to Duluth? Get a grip folks, a few thousand people cooking brats in the parking lot never won anyone anything, look big picture here.
Advantage: Minneapolis
Financing
Arden Hills
A shade over $1 billion with a team contribution of $407 million
Minneapolis
$895 million with a requested $400 million from the team, also need to factor in an estimated $40-50 million lost from having to play at a smaller venue during construction
The question of "fair share" when discussing team contributions for stadiums is a dicey one. Many folks thing the number should be 100%. As I've said, that's not my camp, but it certainly doesn't seem unreasonable to begin discussions at a 50/50 split. A $450 million price tag for Minneapolis would top what other NFL teams have paid in terms of dollars, but is also a lower percentage than some, based on the $895 million total. The Vikings were quick to respond that the requested $400 million in funding for the Minneapolis proposal would be too much, particularly when the loss from 2-3 seasons spent in a college stadium factored in.
The team did offer a contribution of $407 million as part of the Arden Hills proposal. But that looks less generous when you factor in a total price tage of over $1 billion and the revenue streams from parking, naming rights, personal seat licenses, etc. being added to the franchise coffers. Reading from yesterday's Strib article gives the impression that the total tab could run higher still, approaching the $1.3 billion range:
Hours before the Arden Hills deal was announced, Ted Mondale, the governor's chief stadium negotiator, issued a long-awaited cost comparison of the two sites that showed the Arden Hills stadium would cost up to $1.28 billion, compared to $895 million at the Metrodome. According to the analysis, the Arden Hills site would require $275 million to $340 million in highway, parking and other improvements. The Metrodome site would need $30 million for new parking spaces and skyway connections
Call me cynical, but this whole thing reminds me of the bait-and-switch tactic being employed a few months ago, when the Purple offered to fund a higher percentage of a cheaper, open-air stadium. The tactic there seemed to be along the lines of "We'll pay half, but if you want a roof on it, that's your problem." They knew full well that a roof was a must to make it a year-round venue, but it looked better on paper to offer a 50% share of something a couple hundred millions dollars cheaper. As with most things, you have to read the fine print. This variation in infrastructure costs, which the state is on the hook for, feels like more of the same.
Advantage: Minneapolis (or at least it will be when the true cost comes out)
Timing
Arden Hills
Worked with the team and county over a period of weeks to develop a plan
Minneapolis
Haphazardly threw together a proposal at the 11th hour only after Hennepin County backed out. Compounded the error by cluttering it up with Timberwolves-related nonsense that should've been addressed separately.
Advantage: Arden Hills, by a mile
So what now? Tough to say, they have two weeks to go in the legislative session, which is my opinion is not enough time to answer the outstanding questions. Furthermore, the govenor seems to be giving off signals that he favors the downtown Minneapolis plan. This whole situation give the impression that, while progress is being made, we're still a year out from a solution. I for one hope that delay results in a cohesive Minneapolis plan being offered and accepted, for the reasons detailed above.
At this point, the only thing that we know for certain is that the Vikings will go for whichever plan benefits them the most financially. I can't blame them for that, no billionaire became a billionaire by failing to take the best deal available. But from the perspective of a taxpayer, even one who can stomach the idea of funding this thing, it's time to place one hand over your wallet. Pardon me for being leery of an industry that essentially prints money, yet keeps claiming poverty.
Nevermind that professional sports franchises are never willing to produce the financial records proving the losses they claim. Or that franchises constantly seem to appreciate, with a slew of prospective buyers any time one of them goes up for sale. No, no, just take they're word for it, this is a terrible business to be in and they'll soon be forced to sell, move or liquidate...unless of course you can spare a dime brother. To the city of Minneapolis and state of Minnesota, please don't blink here. Stick to your guns, as we learned with the Twins, it's amazing what suddenly becomes palatable when it becomes clear there are no other options.
Otherwise, if a compromise needs to be made, tie a back-end payment into the sale of the team if it occurs within 10 years. Zygi reportedly bought this pig for $600 million, and Forbes had it valued around $800 million in 2010. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing a new facility kicks that valuation up to at least $1 billion, if not higher. Factor in the operation revenue to be gained in the interim and for the first 10 years, anything north of that mark goes back to the state coffers.
So those are my stadium thoughts, sorry for the length, but it's the last I'll be writing about it until something actually gets signed, sealed and delivered. No telling when that will be. A lot of people may take issue with my views, saying that they're unrealistic, and this is the price of admission for being an NFL town, but I really don't care. As much as I love the Vikings, I can live without them more easily than just about any other team in town (save for the Wolves). In my opinion, the NFL has completely sold out it's in-person experience for the sake of TV audiences, and watching 5 games at once from the comfort of a couch or barstool bypassed the hassle of attending in person long ago. What's more, I've grown tired of the antics from both the league and this team. Both have grown like an invasive weed, to the point of choking out all other life on the sports landscape. Their arrogance offends me, and I would love for Minnesota to be the first market to say "Thanks, but no thanks" when the stadium gun is put to their head. Alas, I'm convinced there is no possible way that happens, but a guy can dream.
Worst case scenario, they move them to LA, big whoop. This might lose me my fan card, but I think that's been a hollow threat all along. It's doubtful that the people who want to build the LA stadium won't want a controlling interest in the team that plays there, and I don't see Zygi moving it just to cede control. But it's out there, so needs to be noted. If it happens, I'll get along like millions of other fans across the country, rooting for an out-of-market team the same way I typically do now, on TV. While my sympathies would lay with those dedicated souls who consider being in the stands on Sunday a staple of life, they'd have to understand that the team and league did it to themselves. Besides, nothing is easier than being a long-distance fan in the age of the Internet and satellite television, you guys will be okay. And hey, you never know, maybe we'll get an expansion team that's not a cursed pack of losers.
Like I said fellow Purple faithful, if getting fed up at this episode of team history is grounds for kicking me off the bandwagon, so be it. My first choice is for a workable deal to be struck, but if the Vikings keep angling for more and more, as has been their m.o. in the past, I have no problem walking away. Rest assured that there will always be that portion of me that only stirs while watching the Vikes play, it's too ingrained to ever leave, but this whole thing makes me feel as if I'm being treated like an idiot. Maybe things would be different if they're wasn't a petty labor squabble going on at the moment, I'm not sure. It's just that every time I turn around it seems like sports is eating another part of itself. The ticket prices keep going up, while the talent pools just grow more deluded and players more detached. It's hard not to feel stupid for caring about it at times.
Of course, my original offer to the Vikings still stands: Win a Super Bowl and we'll pay every dime.
I'm not holding my breath.
Wednesday, May 5, 2010
Viking Stadium...take 7
With the Vikings stadium issue bubling up in the legislature once again, I asked for some opinions on the latest proposal from my buddy Derek, who follows the issues quite closely and was involved in the previous Anoka County stadium proposal. Here is what he sent back, obviously "a few thoughts" was a bit of an understatement:
First thought: is there any way we can convince Lester Bagley to just not say anything when asked? He hurts more than he helps, at least with his words. I thought I saw the worst stadium effort of my lifetime with the Twins, and then the Marlins came along…well…the Vikings are already well past them overall because they learned NOTHING from the Twins mistakes, as they are making the same ones all over again.
Bagley’s comments are that the Vikings can’t get behind this proposal as it stands because it costs them too much and the lease is too long? Are you flipping kidding me!?!? SHUT UP!!!! That only hurts the chances with the legislators if they see you aren’t even on board. WAIT FOR CONFERENCE COMMITTEE YOU STUPID IDIOT!!! If you are that focused on making sure your voice is heard, say something generic like, “We are hopeful that State leaders can find a way to listen to our proposal in the midst of dealing with the many more important matters they currently face.” This guy is bush league. I have no idea how he keeps his job.
My thoughts on the actual proposal, keep in mind that I am trying to be as brief as possible, could write a novel:
1) Less than two weeks left makes this all moot. ZERO chance this gets accomplished. Had they shown up with a bill in January (which means they needed to have their ducks in a row by Thanksgiving) this might have stood a 10% chance. I can’t tell you how many times the Twins thought they ‘really had a shot’ with two weeks left. Meanwhile, there were committee meetings canceled, or with a very light agenda, all session long, and they didn’t take advantage. Each side will have a minimum of five committees to endure unless there is a procedural maneuver to take the bill from the Ways and Means committee to the House or Senate floor, which is a political fireball and almost never happens unless it’s a bill to find a lost child or do something procedural that makes everyone look good.
2) Fixed roof option sucks, but I understand how it happened. Can’t afford retractable, gotta be able to host events year ‘round. They need to compromise since both the Vikings and MSFC are bull-headed and short-sighted. MSFC and State need political capital raised by hosting events besides Vikings football, Vikings don’t want to fund more than one-third of an open-air stadium. It’s amazing what happens when you get large groups of idiots together to make decisions. At the end of the day, if it keeps the Vikings, although I don’t like it, gimme the dome. Baseball belongs outside, college football does too, and while NFL should be also, at least a semi-reasonable argument can be made for the NFL to be indoors. Randy and I agreed that we all hope Zygi comes to his senses and ponies up the extra $100 or so it takes to make retractable. (Also, anyone find it funny that in a struggling economy where everyone is reducing the prices of homes/building materials/interest rates/etc…that this silly stadium seems to get $50M more expensive every single year?)
3) I like that the bill asks for 1/3 from the Vikings for total cost. I believe that the Vikings will ultimately agree if that is what it takes.
4) Last I heard, the bill is not site-specific, which will impede its progress. Twins finally had to get site-specific. If they choose the Metrodome site, they are going to hurt themselves, because the Governor and Legislature have demanded the Vikings to find a local partner for five years now, while the Vikings sit with their finger in their ear and do nothing on that front, other than alienate the only two groups willing to partner with them in Blaine and the U of M. The Vikings will tell you all day neither site worked, but I bet they would take it if they could get it now! (I can’t tell you how horrible of a job they are doing at this stadium project.) There is no local partner available for the Metrodome site. Minneapolis doesn’t have money, as it is in the red, requires a referendum to spend more than $10M on a facility, and has all it can handle with the Target Center remodel from a few years ago. Hennepin County has the Twins ballpark in their tax right now, so not sure they could afford more.
5) I like the idea of lottery game to raise $5.5M. I like the idea of the rental cars and hotels because it taxes mostly out-of-town businesses. Not a huge fan of the jersey tax because it hits specific businesses and specific consumers hard…and not necessarily those who go to games. But, it is creative. If I were the Vikings, I approach Ramsey County (St. Paul) and tell them I want to put our new facility on the State Fairgrounds. My favorite option has always been slot machines at Canterbury, but with the Indian lobby being so strong, probably won’t happen.
6) It isn’t gonna happen this year, but would have a chance next year if they follow my simple ideas. It isn’t rocket science, if they would set aside their arrogance for 10 minutes, like the Twins FINALLY did…oh man this could have a real shot.
Thanks for the perspective Derek, obviously a lot of things that still need to shake out here. For my part, I will just say that one way or another, the Vikings are getting a stadium, they are too popular not to. Frankly I don't see why it's necessary to spend this kind of money, when they could remodle the Dome for a fraction of the cost, but that probably has to do with the fact that I'm over the NFL as a in-person sport.
My fellow fans would probably want to tar and feather me for this, but it wouldn't kill me to see the Vikes leave town, at least not as much as it would with the Twins or Wild. As much as I love Vikings football, I just can't stand attending NFL games, it's hugely expensive, has way too much downtime, and takes up a huge amount of your Sunday. In this day and age, I prefer my couch or a barstool to a seat at the game, so having my team actually play in my town is a bit meaningless. If they moved them to LA and kept calling them the Vikings, I really don't see how that changes a thing for me personally, just more late games!
Yes, I know this makes me a traitor, but it's true.
First thought: is there any way we can convince Lester Bagley to just not say anything when asked? He hurts more than he helps, at least with his words. I thought I saw the worst stadium effort of my lifetime with the Twins, and then the Marlins came along…well…the Vikings are already well past them overall because they learned NOTHING from the Twins mistakes, as they are making the same ones all over again.
Bagley’s comments are that the Vikings can’t get behind this proposal as it stands because it costs them too much and the lease is too long? Are you flipping kidding me!?!? SHUT UP!!!! That only hurts the chances with the legislators if they see you aren’t even on board. WAIT FOR CONFERENCE COMMITTEE YOU STUPID IDIOT!!! If you are that focused on making sure your voice is heard, say something generic like, “We are hopeful that State leaders can find a way to listen to our proposal in the midst of dealing with the many more important matters they currently face.” This guy is bush league. I have no idea how he keeps his job.
My thoughts on the actual proposal, keep in mind that I am trying to be as brief as possible, could write a novel:
1) Less than two weeks left makes this all moot. ZERO chance this gets accomplished. Had they shown up with a bill in January (which means they needed to have their ducks in a row by Thanksgiving) this might have stood a 10% chance. I can’t tell you how many times the Twins thought they ‘really had a shot’ with two weeks left. Meanwhile, there were committee meetings canceled, or with a very light agenda, all session long, and they didn’t take advantage. Each side will have a minimum of five committees to endure unless there is a procedural maneuver to take the bill from the Ways and Means committee to the House or Senate floor, which is a political fireball and almost never happens unless it’s a bill to find a lost child or do something procedural that makes everyone look good.
2) Fixed roof option sucks, but I understand how it happened. Can’t afford retractable, gotta be able to host events year ‘round. They need to compromise since both the Vikings and MSFC are bull-headed and short-sighted. MSFC and State need political capital raised by hosting events besides Vikings football, Vikings don’t want to fund more than one-third of an open-air stadium. It’s amazing what happens when you get large groups of idiots together to make decisions. At the end of the day, if it keeps the Vikings, although I don’t like it, gimme the dome. Baseball belongs outside, college football does too, and while NFL should be also, at least a semi-reasonable argument can be made for the NFL to be indoors. Randy and I agreed that we all hope Zygi comes to his senses and ponies up the extra $100 or so it takes to make retractable. (Also, anyone find it funny that in a struggling economy where everyone is reducing the prices of homes/building materials/interest rates/etc…that this silly stadium seems to get $50M more expensive every single year?)
3) I like that the bill asks for 1/3 from the Vikings for total cost. I believe that the Vikings will ultimately agree if that is what it takes.
4) Last I heard, the bill is not site-specific, which will impede its progress. Twins finally had to get site-specific. If they choose the Metrodome site, they are going to hurt themselves, because the Governor and Legislature have demanded the Vikings to find a local partner for five years now, while the Vikings sit with their finger in their ear and do nothing on that front, other than alienate the only two groups willing to partner with them in Blaine and the U of M. The Vikings will tell you all day neither site worked, but I bet they would take it if they could get it now! (I can’t tell you how horrible of a job they are doing at this stadium project.) There is no local partner available for the Metrodome site. Minneapolis doesn’t have money, as it is in the red, requires a referendum to spend more than $10M on a facility, and has all it can handle with the Target Center remodel from a few years ago. Hennepin County has the Twins ballpark in their tax right now, so not sure they could afford more.
5) I like the idea of lottery game to raise $5.5M. I like the idea of the rental cars and hotels because it taxes mostly out-of-town businesses. Not a huge fan of the jersey tax because it hits specific businesses and specific consumers hard…and not necessarily those who go to games. But, it is creative. If I were the Vikings, I approach Ramsey County (St. Paul) and tell them I want to put our new facility on the State Fairgrounds. My favorite option has always been slot machines at Canterbury, but with the Indian lobby being so strong, probably won’t happen.
6) It isn’t gonna happen this year, but would have a chance next year if they follow my simple ideas. It isn’t rocket science, if they would set aside their arrogance for 10 minutes, like the Twins FINALLY did…oh man this could have a real shot.
Thanks for the perspective Derek, obviously a lot of things that still need to shake out here. For my part, I will just say that one way or another, the Vikings are getting a stadium, they are too popular not to. Frankly I don't see why it's necessary to spend this kind of money, when they could remodle the Dome for a fraction of the cost, but that probably has to do with the fact that I'm over the NFL as a in-person sport.
My fellow fans would probably want to tar and feather me for this, but it wouldn't kill me to see the Vikes leave town, at least not as much as it would with the Twins or Wild. As much as I love Vikings football, I just can't stand attending NFL games, it's hugely expensive, has way too much downtime, and takes up a huge amount of your Sunday. In this day and age, I prefer my couch or a barstool to a seat at the game, so having my team actually play in my town is a bit meaningless. If they moved them to LA and kept calling them the Vikings, I really don't see how that changes a thing for me personally, just more late games!
Yes, I know this makes me a traitor, but it's true.
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